Entry tags:
A response to ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
doubletake
Hmmm...
Maybe I'm totally misreading this post. With the events of my own last week, it almost sounds as if this particular post is aimed directly at myself (well, not just myself, but...). If so, I can only apologize again for any pain caused by you and any of the people I consider my friends.
Believe me when I say I understand exactly what you mean. For the past five days, I've been in total conflict with myself. I'd like to say something, anything... to point out the inconsistincies from one post to another, to make nasty remarks at someone who makes nasty remarks at myself and my friends, to be able to say to someone "Look, I may be an asshole, but he's a bigger asshole." and yet I know to do so not only invites a continuation of the argument, but makes me the agressor.
Conventional wisdom, indeed your own wisdom suggests that the best thing to do is to ignore them, put on a sweet face and wish it would all go away.
This is NOT always appropriate, though.
To look at some famous examples of how bad an idea that is.. let's look at 9/11. We knew that the terrorists were out there. We let them be. We figured if we put on our happy faces and smiled, everything would take care of itself.
It didn't.
If you looked to World War II, Britain and France put on happy faces. Sure, sure, let Hitler have Poland. He can't get us. We're safe.
They weren't.
The problem is that it takes both points of view... yours *AND* mine to make the world go round. If we were all willing to let things be, then we'd all be dead, simple as that. Someone would have ceased power and simply destroyed everyone who was not like or with them.
For five days straight, I've been listening to not one but an overwhelming amount of people telling me that the best thing to do is ignore things, let them go away. After all, I'm hardly guiltless. But the fact is, by doing so, we simply line ourselves up for the next time. By doing no action, you allow all the pain and suffering to occur again.. in, however long, a few days, a few weeks, maybe a few months.
But nothing will have changed, you see.
And in some time or other... war again.
Life is run by politics. Bickering, Arguing, War.. it's the way life works. You can't hope it simply goes away, because it doesn't. Pretending it will, hoping it will... lines you up as easy targets to be hurt.
It's NEVER just an argument between just two people. It never was. You may want to think it was, that "dirty tricks" force other people to get involved, but that's pure bologna. People get involved because they choose to... to manuever themselves into a better position, to fight with their allies or simply because they feel that everything would be better if they argued that position. Whatever their reasons, people always involve themselves.
When Stebe wrote his famous post, 6 people spoke up. They didn't have to, but they chose to, of their own volition. 6 people went and got involved for, whatever their reasons were. No one was pulled in. No one was told "if you love me, you would defend them.". They posted because they wanted to.
Every time an argument occurs, whether between friends or over broader issues like abortion, education and war, we choose sides. It's instinctive. You look at one side and you look at the other and you decide who is right and who is wrong. No one forces you to do it, it's just something you do. You may be open-minded on your opinion, but the opinion is formed anyways.
I'm not saying I have The Answer. I'm not saying that my point of view is any better than yours, but to really come up with any source of sensible action, you need to step back, consider the case by itself and then find a solution that all parties can live with. You can't just ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor is rash action the best choice. I think the only sensible choice is a case-by-case compromise. Sit down and come up with a solution that all parties can live with.
Keep in mind, when you ignore the bully and don't let him get to you, sure he may leave YOU alone, but he's still a bully and he'll just find someone else to bully. You may have taken yourself out of the picture, but you haven't actually fixed the problem.
Sometimes respect must not only be earned with the olive twig and dove, but with the fist and the knife. Because that's the sort of imperfect world we live in and not everyone is wise and mature and good.
Maybe I'm totally misreading this post. With the events of my own last week, it almost sounds as if this particular post is aimed directly at myself (well, not just myself, but...). If so, I can only apologize again for any pain caused by you and any of the people I consider my friends.
Believe me when I say I understand exactly what you mean. For the past five days, I've been in total conflict with myself. I'd like to say something, anything... to point out the inconsistincies from one post to another, to make nasty remarks at someone who makes nasty remarks at myself and my friends, to be able to say to someone "Look, I may be an asshole, but he's a bigger asshole." and yet I know to do so not only invites a continuation of the argument, but makes me the agressor.
Conventional wisdom, indeed your own wisdom suggests that the best thing to do is to ignore them, put on a sweet face and wish it would all go away.
This is NOT always appropriate, though.
To look at some famous examples of how bad an idea that is.. let's look at 9/11. We knew that the terrorists were out there. We let them be. We figured if we put on our happy faces and smiled, everything would take care of itself.
It didn't.
If you looked to World War II, Britain and France put on happy faces. Sure, sure, let Hitler have Poland. He can't get us. We're safe.
They weren't.
The problem is that it takes both points of view... yours *AND* mine to make the world go round. If we were all willing to let things be, then we'd all be dead, simple as that. Someone would have ceased power and simply destroyed everyone who was not like or with them.
For five days straight, I've been listening to not one but an overwhelming amount of people telling me that the best thing to do is ignore things, let them go away. After all, I'm hardly guiltless. But the fact is, by doing so, we simply line ourselves up for the next time. By doing no action, you allow all the pain and suffering to occur again.. in, however long, a few days, a few weeks, maybe a few months.
But nothing will have changed, you see.
And in some time or other... war again.
Life is run by politics. Bickering, Arguing, War.. it's the way life works. You can't hope it simply goes away, because it doesn't. Pretending it will, hoping it will... lines you up as easy targets to be hurt.
It's NEVER just an argument between just two people. It never was. You may want to think it was, that "dirty tricks" force other people to get involved, but that's pure bologna. People get involved because they choose to... to manuever themselves into a better position, to fight with their allies or simply because they feel that everything would be better if they argued that position. Whatever their reasons, people always involve themselves.
When Stebe wrote his famous post, 6 people spoke up. They didn't have to, but they chose to, of their own volition. 6 people went and got involved for, whatever their reasons were. No one was pulled in. No one was told "if you love me, you would defend them.". They posted because they wanted to.
Every time an argument occurs, whether between friends or over broader issues like abortion, education and war, we choose sides. It's instinctive. You look at one side and you look at the other and you decide who is right and who is wrong. No one forces you to do it, it's just something you do. You may be open-minded on your opinion, but the opinion is formed anyways.
I'm not saying I have The Answer. I'm not saying that my point of view is any better than yours, but to really come up with any source of sensible action, you need to step back, consider the case by itself and then find a solution that all parties can live with. You can't just ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor is rash action the best choice. I think the only sensible choice is a case-by-case compromise. Sit down and come up with a solution that all parties can live with.
Keep in mind, when you ignore the bully and don't let him get to you, sure he may leave YOU alone, but he's still a bully and he'll just find someone else to bully. You may have taken yourself out of the picture, but you haven't actually fixed the problem.
Sometimes respect must not only be earned with the olive twig and dove, but with the fist and the knife. Because that's the sort of imperfect world we live in and not everyone is wise and mature and good.
*chuckles some*
Re: *chuckles some*
Re: *chuckles some*
Re: *chuckles some*
Star posting from kolys's account?
hmmm..
does kolys exist?!?!
The public wants to know!
Re: *chuckles some*
Re: *chuckles some*
Still not sure whether to believe you or not.
I think you two will have to come down to Buffalo before I believe you ;)
Re: *chuckles some*
*grins*
Re: *chuckles some*
I think I require further proof.
Ye'll have to come down to Buffalo to see the Indigo Girls before I believe this claim ;)
Re: *chuckles some*
no subject
There's a difference between actions and words.
no subject
In a utopian world all people will act maturely and in good faith and when they do act up, that the best course of action is to ignore them. In the 'real world', though that doesn't solve the problem, it just takes you out of the picture.
Ignoring the problem leads to it's own set of consequences. And maybe you'll get reembroiled in it and maybe you won't. My own experiences suggest that, in general, you'll get caught back up in it all again, though.
That was my point. Not Stebe is comparable to a terrorist or a nazi, but that if you simply let things be, you could end up having to deal with the consequences, whatever they may be.
yeppers
So, in essence, yes, I have enough tickets for you, Robby, Star, Kolys and myself
Re: yeppers
Re: yeppers
Rebuttal...or at least a bit of clearing up...
There is, however, this strange quality of online relationships and communities that seems to perpetuate the sort of snowballing argument effect I was talking about. I used to think that it was because it was much easier to throw away a frienship that had existed only in text, but now I'm not so sure. So many of my online friends have become extremely close to me, to the point at which I trust them as much as the RL friends I've had since preschool. So what is it about the online world?
I guess I should clarify my own reasons for turning the other cheek. I've confronted this person about the problem before, but to no avail. It's not a bully situation, nor am I playing a victim's role. There's very little left for me to do but to become a nag (I hate nagging), get violent (I hate violence), or just drop it and hope they figure it out on their own. Although a good deal of me says "Rub them in the dirt!", I don't think it would fix the problem, even temporarily. And I know how much asking people to take sides for or against friends ends up hurting. I've been stuck in the middle way too many times.
This is a personal problem. It involves me, and the offender. No one else. Unless I chose to let it grow. I could ask people to take sides, indeed, that's what a public confrontation would do. It might bolster my ego or even my courage if I had people telling me that I'm right. But I don't think that's the right path for me right now. If it were something that hurt more people than myself, I might have chosen differently. If it were something that could have been solved or improved by confrontation, I might have said something.
I agree with Kareila, comparing twink wars and petty personal squabbles to 9/11 and WW2 is a pretty big stretch (in my personal and often fallible opinion). For instance, the reason that Britain and France ignored Hitler for so long is that they were in the middle of a huge crisis of their own: the great Depression. They also weren't over all the other wars they had been fighting recently. They couldn't afford to confront him, they probably would have lost if they had right then. At least, this is what my History prof says. I'll stay away from 9/11 as a measure of self-preservation.
Of course, I'm one of those infuriating (or so I've been told) people who usually refuses to take sides in arguments. I will admit that sometimes it seems like the only way to get out of a situation is to fight. But in many instances, fighting just won't work. In response to your WW2 and 9/11, I'll use the Middle East as an example. People have been fighting for hundreds of years. It's not going to improve. Neither side will budge or listen, just shoot and die. The only way life for them will get better is to stop fighting and let go of the conflict.
I let go.
Re: Rebuttal...or at least a bit of clearing up...
Just wanted to clear that up.
Re: Rebuttal...or at least a bit of clearing up...
I understand your feelings towards this particular person. Like I was trying to say, the best course of action is take things case-by-case. Sometimes you NEED to knock a person around a few times to get them to realize yer NOT going to be a part of their screwed up world. That was all i was trying to say.
You make a point about how public spectacles are what lead to people choosing sides. I concede the point. Regardless, once something BECOMES public, people automatically seem to choose sides.
See my respose to Kareila on what I was trying (and apparently failing) to say. I wasn't trying to compare a twink episode to nazi germany, but to ruminate about the similarities of the circumstances that led to the attacks.
Regardless of why Britain and France ignored Hitler (sorry, I'm not sure I buy what yer prof says), the fact is they did appease Hitler.. and then Hitler attacked France.