On Christmas Carols and Seperation of Church and State

[hkellick]

So, it's back. The big "should christmas be celebrated at school" debate.
Well, no, it never really went away, but it's back in the limelight again.

I definately have a position about this, and I'll get to that, but first a little bit of personal history.

My senior year of high school, my school district, Williamsville School District did the unthinkable: they banned overtly religious songs and displays from their schools. This was unheard of, unthinable! Well, not really, but as a Senior, that's a great deal of what I heard.
The problem was this.. and this is true, I suspect, of all these suburban school districts that this argument is happening in.. as far as anyone could see, the district was predominantly christian (false - it turns out the neighborhood had a really pretty good mix of christians (all denominations), jews, muslims and.. other (I had no understanding of the other, but trust me, they were there.)
The issue at stake wasn't about songs like Frosty the Snowman, but about "Silent Night" and "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen". There was a growing majority of the district population who did not feel that these overtly religious songs belonged in a public school setting.
A referendum occured (at the time, I did not want to go, my mom dragged me. But 11 years later, I'm glad I was there.). I remember it fairly clearly, actually. My mom, Marc and I went to North. As we stepped in, we passed a bunch of Born Agains singing Christmas Carols.. and one loonie old woman going on and on about how the jews were trying to take away their heritage. We went inside the auditorium and all concerned citizens were allowed to speak their minds. There was a little of both: both people who felt that these songs were harmless, part of American heritage and should be left alone.. and those who felt it was specifically not.
Anyways, a vote passed and overtly christian songs were banned. Gone.
Instantly, the entire school district was a mockery. We were the PC school district.
An interesting note.. at the time all of this was going on, yours truly was collecting CDs from a local radio station: 97 Rock. By and large, the CDs were bad (I loved them anyways) parodies of rock songs about.. The Buffalo Bills. (Yellow Submarine turned into the Yellow Steelers Team and, my favorite right now, Dude Looks Like a Lady turned into Drew (yes, Bledsoe) throws like a lady.) Anyways, the year this happened (and a whole slew of other big item tickets in Buffalo THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SNOW) happened, 97 Rock turned out a CD about Buffalo. I still have and enjoy this CD. (Especially songs like "Erie County Fair" and "Peace Bridge" and "Cheektowaga Polka" (I'll hook you two up, blackfelicula and ecwoodburn. You would appreciate!) And, of course.. the Williamsville School District's CHristmas Carols.. like We Wish You a Memorable Seasonal Tidings.
At the time, I was both angry that we kids had been put into the middle of a very adult problem.

11 Years Later..
It's back.
I've grown up since then and I've definately learned some things since then.
And I still staunchly agree with the Williamsville Policy.
Personally, I have a very Grinch-like attitude toward Christmas. I suspect it's because I'm an outside. I've never celebrated Christmas. It's meant nothing to me. All I see is that for one month a year, everyone gets "Holiday Spirit"( they try to be nice to one another. Something they apparently can not do the other 11 months.), and the popular media is awash with a butt ton of Christmas Songs, Christmas movies and Christmas TV Specials.
I see the truth behind the facade. People who will be nice on the phone go into a store and start cussing out the poor guy at the counter because they are too stupid to read the sale sign correctly or because the manufacturers cause a drought of Tickle-Me-Elmos until the week before Christmas so it seems like they're always sold out.
Moreover, I see an important religious holiday converted into a capitalist's wet dreams: presents and cards and candy and gaudy lawn displays.

More than all that, though, what I see is an otherwise secular nation suddenly converted into Christmas Mode. And it disturbs me.
I wonder how many people have ever thought about what it says about our culture that for over a month, America lives and breathes Christmas, despite the fact.. and I want to make this perfectly clear, America is NOT a Christian nation and Christmas is NOT a national holiday.
I think this is the important point right there. America is NOT a Christian Nation. I'm not sure how many Americans do actually celebrate Christmas, but I strongly suspect it's a great deal less than one might guess due to the complete tidal wave of Christmas songs, movies, television specials etc.

So, let's get back to our original topic of discourse: religious songs in public theatre.
And I say no. No that's not right.
I'm not saying No to Frosty or Rudolph or We Wish You a Merry Christmas. I'm saying that Jesus should be left at home.. or at church, but not at school.
This is the part people don't get: They're upset because we want to close one forum. Yes, I do agree that school is an important place for your child, but you have no more right to demand that they sing "o Holy Night" than I do that they go up on stage and sacrifice kool aid and graham crackers to the Lord and Lady and wish the Lord a happy death.
That's the heart of it right there. Just because there are more of you doesn't mean it's right. Just because the nation goes Christmas-crazy doesn't mean it's right either.

Keep Jesus out of the Christmas Play.
Thank you.

I am keeping comment enabled. Feel free to argue.

Comments

[zorkian]

Agreed. While I grew up on these songs too and sing them without thinking about it, I'd rather have that sort of thing out of the schools so that schools can focus on education.

There are plenty of Holiday things to do that don't involve singing about "Our Lord Jesus Christ" etc etc etc.

[paradisacorbasi.livejournal.com]

I'm not arguing. I agree with you.

I have noticed a similar trend with people insisting on saying "Merry Christmas," as if to say that that is the only appropriate holiday greeting to say. Like nobody else's holidays matter. Like "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" is some form of insult to Christ and all Christians.

If the Jews don't get to sing the Dreidel song, and the Pagans don't get to sing a song about the dying of the Oak King [I think I've got the king right -- it's been awhile], then it's only right the Christians don't get to sing about Christ except where all the other religions get to sing about it.

As for America being a Christian nation, I agree with you but I don't think the 51% of voters do. And that's a problem, because as a democracy [which they say we are; we're really a republic, just like it says in the Pledge of Allegiance] majority rules.

And they're the majority.

[mythagon.livejournal.com]

I agree with you.

Christ does not belong in school. No diety does. I was raised non-religious and though I love most christmas music, that does not mean I believe in Christ anymore then little rappers believe in shooting up with their bitches after robbing a bank--it just means I like the tune.

Dear Lord, please save me from your followers...

[blackfelicula.livejournal.com]

Happy KwanzaChanuMasSolstice!

This is academic, not personal s:)

[phoenixsong]

Theoretically, I agree.

However, I also recall that for years, my mom would, for lack of a better word, snicker at Mrs. Hoch/our district. Why? The songs we sang in elementary school at the "Winter concert" were Jingle Bells, Frosty the Snowman...and the Dreidle (sp) song. I seem to also remember singing "Hanukah, Hanukah, let the fun begin!" And then whatever generic original stuff she wrote for us.

Yes, this was about 10 years before that town meeting, but my point is this: if you're going to be inclusive of a rather minor Jewish holiday, for years and years, what is the harm of a few explicitly Christian songs to balance it? Why is it wrong for the Jewish, Hindu, Muslim kids to sing Christmas carols, but it's OK for everyone to sing "I have a little dreidle, I made it out of clay"?

Honestly, ideally, perhaps idealistically, I'd like to see a balance -- not an all-or-none, toss out the baby with the bathwater (no pun intended) mentality. Do a few generic songs, fine, but if you're going to let/make them sing about dreidles, why not "Silent Night," too? (And why not "Deck the Halls" for a little pagan subversion, too? *eg*)

(IIRC, too, it was either JUST North, or JUST the high schools that decided this. Which is also dumb -- making a big fuss out of it with the students who might actually be able to comprehend the idea of cultural diversity, while letting the younger kids do whatever the teacher's whimsy allows. Right.)

[phoenixsong]

Hihihihihihi!

[kareila]

I don't feel that religious practices should be banned from schools, but I do feel that people in any position of power (teachers, presidents, whatever) should not be seen as promoting one religion over another. Learning about cultural traditions other than your own is educational as well. I remember learning to play with dreidels in first grade, it was fun.

Christmas is a federal holiday, for better or for worse - the banks close and the mail doesn't come. But if you think about it, most of the federal holidays seem completely arbitrary. I mean, come on, Columbus Day? Whatever. :)

Anyway, most of the things you complain about (crazed shoppers, TV specials) are symptoms of the secular Christmas going out of control. The religious Christmas often gets forgotten in the shuffle. I feel that for purposes of debate it is important to distinguish between the two, especially when what you say bothers you personally and what is being banned in the schools appear, to me, to be different things...

[blackfelicula.livejournal.com]

Azzo ***hugs***

[lite.livejournal.com]

I'm an ex-Pagan. So I don't know what King it is anymore.

But.. the Dreidel song can't really be compared to "O Holy Night" - Dreidel is a children's game. There is a religious basis behind it, but Dreidel is, basically, gambling.
I equate "Dreidel Dreidel Dreidel" with "Frosty the Snowman" - it's a children's song, but not religious.

And I'm sorry.. the 51% of people who voted for Bush are not necessarily the same amount of people who need for their children to sing about Jesus in school. That's a vocal minority. Not all christians are like that.
Again, from experience, when Williamsville banned religious songs in their holiday celebrations, if it had been JUST Non-Christians, it probably would have fallen very short. But there were christians who agreed with us, that school was not the place for "Hark The Hairbrained Angels Sing"

[lite.livejournal.com]

I did go off a bit on a tangent there, yeah.

I agree that learning about cultural traditions is a good thing and should continue on through the entierty of your school career. Educating students about what Christmas is, though, and what it represents is not the same as singing Christmas Carols.

There's a distinct difference, though, about learning about Religions and Religious Holidays (OK, you played with dreidels, but what else did you learn about Hannukah in school?) and CELEBRATING them. I know that throughout my school career, my school CELEBRATED Christmas.
I believe that school is secular and should remain so, which means that singing about the holy birth of Jesus should be out.

Get past "I hate Christmas" and that's the heart of my argument. Basically, seperation of Church and State with public schools as state-sponsored.

[dustkitten.livejournal.com]

I'm with the redhead. Tash's school is doing exactly what Jen said, despite the fact that there are no Jewish kids in her class (maybe even in the school). They played with dreidels and learned The Driedel Songs and Tash came home and asked which of our friends are Jewish. She knows the difference between a menorah and the Kwanzaa candles. For their play, this year they are doing "Christmas Around The World," which is teaching them the cultural differences of worship. One would think that this would be a stepping stone to understanding that even within its own ranks, Christianity is different to different people.

I don't see anyone being nicer to anyone else this time of year. Everyone always says that, but I have no clue what they're talking about, except maybe that "Happy Holidays" is used in lieu of "Have a nice day" in shopping centers.

Crazed shoppers are supposedly down in record numbers this year, as well.

-A-

Re: This is academic, not personal s:)

[lite.livejournal.com]

Because Dreidel Dreidel Dreidel is equatable to Frosty the Snowman?

A fairer comparison would probably be making elementary school kids sing the Hannukah Blessing and then sing "Merry Gentlemen".
The harm comes in the content. There are a whole HOST of non-religious songs: Jingle Bells, Jingle Bell Rock, Sleigh Ride, even Deck the Halls. Not one of these professes love to the one true god who is also son of god.

Explain to me, specifically, why five year olds need to be singing the praise of Jesus instead of all these other good songs?
I'm not saying no to all Christmas songs. I'm not saying no to a Christmas concert. What I'm saying is that Jesus does not belong in school. Period.

And, no, it was not just North and it was not just the High Schoolers. If you want, go ask your mom... or better yet, go ask mine. Both Marc and Josh were in band and chorus at that point in time, and none of them played/sang anything overtly religious.

This argument goes beyond what ten year olds are thinking while singing "O Holy Night" in concert.
Part of this fight is going on.. is it Jersey? About the ten year old who brought in candy canes with religious text attached and told he was not allowed to give them out.
If I was one of his classmates, I'd probably have tossed the text out and just eaten the candy canes. I imagine most ten year olds would agree with me.
What this argument is about is parents and teachers and school boards duking it out over how seperate should State and Church be. Period.
As an adult, as a hopeful parent, I feel Jesus does not belong in school.

[kareila]

To people our age, learning about traditions and celebrating them are distinct, but kids generally learn by doing. I think it would be odd for a teacher to say "Okay class, I'm going to play a record of Christmas and Hannukah music for you so you can learn it, but you can't sing along because that would be celebrating traditions you don't believe in." Kids are just learning meanings, not expressing belief, y'know? And I think that as long as the children aren't being taught that Christmas is the one true winter holiday, or schools appear in their own celebrations to be favoring Christmas over the others, then it's ok.

To me, separation of church and state doesn't mean state-sponsored institutions try to pretend religion doesn't exist, just that they don't play favorites. I guess that's the fundamental basis for my perspective.

[kareila]

As another data point on "not playing favorites", in my high school choir we sang "Adon Olam" (which I think is beautiful) and another song about Maccabee as well as "Angels We Have Heard On High" and "There Is No Rose Of Such Vertu, As Is The Rose That Bare Jesu." I don't think we sang any cheesy contemporary carols, but we mixed and matched traditions.

[lite.livejournal.com]

I guess I think there's a scale. Go ahead and bring in records of Christmas and Hannukah music, but leave "Jesus, our heavenly savior" for the Church and play "Frosty" and "Dreidel Dreidel" for children? I agree that children learn by doing, but I also don't think that what I'm asking is entierly unfair.

The issue, I think, is that most Christmas celebrations by virtue of the families who partake in them, do play favorites. I suppose that it makes some sense, if you have a class that's 80% Christian, 10% Jewish and 10% other to be heavy on Christmas music, but you're still playing favorites. Especially if half of your christmas songs are religious, but none of your Jewish or other songs are.

In my school, nobody sang Adom Olan or anything like that. I think we sang Dreidel Dreidel exclusively, except for the year we sang "Light One Candle".
Now Kristen brings up a good point that in the grand scheme of things, Hannukah is a pretty minor holiday, at least religiously. There isn't as many appropriately religious songs or such to tell about Hannukah as there are certain other more important holidays. Like Christmas, Hannukah has been "elevated" into a secular gift-grabbing bonanza.

[phoenixsong]

I pretty much agree with kareila and dustkitten -- I'd rather see maybe 50-60% generic stuff (hey, one of my favorites is Winter Wonderland), and the rest spread evenly between multiple faiths. I think that's a far better approach than WCSD's, which was trying to ban everything and pretend we're all excited because...it's winter. Right. In that case, let's just cancel that week off from school between December 25 and January 1 -- interrupts our run to the end of the semester anyway, right?

The one bit I saved from what I was going to post is this:

I did not say the Dreidel song was equivalent to Frosty the Snowman. However, Mrs. Hoch did seem to imply such in throwing a token Hannukah song in with generic/original winter stuff. Honestly, I'd find that more insulting (Jewish or not) than rounding it out with Silent Night or the like. It's either blatant tokenism (especially if it's the only vaguely relgious song on the program), or the secularization of a religious holiday -- either of which is wrong.

You may not consider the Dreidel song "overtly religious" because there's no mention of Yahweh or miracles or the like. Godly or not, it is (at least to non-Jewish ears) distinctly Jewish. I wouldn't exactly put it in the same category as "Jingle Bells" or "Over the River and Through the Woods," which I would definitely label as generic winter fare. And Kwanzaa isn't properly a religious holiday either, but a Kwanzaa song is still a Kwanzaa (non-Christmas) song. If there are better Hannukah songs than Dreidel Dreidel, say so -- I certainly have no idea what "Adom Olan" is, but if it's better than the sing-song drivel that gets passed off to the rest of us as Hannukah music, bring it on! I can deal with Sleigh Ride as a recording, but if I have to sit through one more bad middle school or high school performance of it... *strangles band directors*

[phoenixsong]

"There Is No Rose Of Such Vertu, As Is The Rose That Bare Jesu."

Oooo, madrigal? *bounces*

[kolys.livejournal.com]

Sure, I'll jump in with two cents here...

I have no problem with any school giving a brief lesson on what Christmas is all about, with the understanding that 'this is what Christians believe, but it's OK if you don't feel the same way'. I think kids should, at the very least, understand something of the tradition they're getting a break from school for.

By the same token, I do think that if we are going to give such explanations, we should educate kids about Purim and Rosh Hashanah, and about Ramadan. Obviously if we start to go into every possible holiday from every possible religion, nothing else will get taught, but I believe that those religious groups which make up significant portions of American society should be represented, and perhaps lesser-known things worked out on an individual basis. For example, if a student is going to be celebrating a religious holiday, however small the religion itself, it can't hurt for the student to give a brief presentation to the class on why he or she might not be in school that day, or whatever. I don't think it can possibly hurt anyone for a class to get a short lesson in what someone else believes, regardless of who the majority and minority are.

I also don't think anyone of any age should be obliged (by school, workplace or government) to participate in any overtly Christian activity against their will. As such, I don't necessarily think all reference to Jesus should be banned, but I do believe that participation in religious-themed plays or singing religious music should be optional.

Most of all, though, I think that if schools are going to teach anything to do with Christmas, they should focus on neither the religious nor the materialistic aspect, and show students that celebration of a holy day - any holy day - should be about sparing a thought or a deed for someone else. About giving of oneself, or of one's resources, to the family, to the community, to someone in need, and to the preservation of important bonds and memories.

After all, even so much as a warm smile and a kind word from each of the world's seven billion people could make any day pretty darn magical.

[lite.livejournal.com]

I will agree that a number of generic and then some more religious songs (there are a number of better Hannukah songs than Dreidel, Dreidel. I've personally always liked "Light One Candle" by Peter, Paul and Mary best. It's not childish and it DOES get into the Hannukah spirit. But, hell, I'd be amused if I saw school kids singing Adam Sandler too.), would be acceptable.

And, frankly, I don't accept that because non-Jews think Dreidel Dreidel is the best song for Hannukah, that we should all sing it. Education needs to start somewhere.
If you're going to sing overtly religious Christmas songs, than kindly do not insult my intelligence by singing "Dreidel Dreidel Dreidel I made it out of clay." It's going to make me very upset.

I know of no good Kwanzaa songs, and I'd want to be careful that any Kwanzaa song I would want my child to sing would be acceptable.
What about other major religions?

The problem is that children's concerts are aimed at parents and since the majority of parents are christian, that's what people expect from a christmas concert.

Also, if you can't sit through one more bad middle school performance, than you and I shall have a long discussion about whether or not our child(ren) will be in middle school band, because extensive experience has shown me that MOST school level performances are pretty bad.

[lite.livejournal.com]

Now we get into another related but not directly issue.
Let's say we have a christmas play. All the good little christian third graders want to join, but the 10% jewish population is not going to. Suddenly, lo and behold, you have yet another reason for kids to pick on their jewish counterparts.
It's the same problem with prayer before class. It may be good for 80% or so of the school kids, but it's hell on the other 20%. In a lovely theoretical world, it would work, but in the real world where bullying happens just cause.. it's not so good.

I also disagree that holy days are about sparing a thought or a deed for someone else. You should not need a holy day for that. You should teach children to always spare a thought for others, to their parents, their community, their friends etc.

Again, I have no issue with teaching children what religion is about, but it should be evenhanded. If you're giving a very drive explanation of Buddhism or Taoism (and I got both, very dryly, only in Global Studies), then Christianity and Judaism should be just as dry.
Having said that, again, it's not very likely.

Go ahead and treat all religions, or at least the major religions evenhanded and I won't be having this discussion, but that's not done and it's a whole lot less likely in places like Georgia than in New York. So, if you can't be evenhanded with preference, then it's time to take all religion out of school except in an educational sense.

[kareila]

Yep... we did plainchant too. My high school choir was awesome.

[phoenixsong]

And, frankly, I don't accept that because non-Jews think Dreidel Dreidel is the best song for Hannukah, that we should all sing it. Education needs to start somewhere.

Absolutely no problem. But you're going to be the one to bring it up, not me -- I'm clueless. s:)

I know of no good Kwanzaa songs, and I'd want to be careful that any Kwanzaa song I would want my child to sing would be acceptable.

I don't know any specific Kwanzaa songs, but my UU church in Rochester included Kwanzaa stuff in the service closest to New Year's. This is a list of the seven principles Kwanzaa celebrates. Very little offensive there.

What about other major religions? -- Again, so long as it's even-handed and not specifically endorsing one over another, I'm fine with (almost) whatever.

The problem is that children's concerts are aimed at parents and since the majority of parents are christian, that's what people expect from a christmas concert.

1) Call it a Winter Concert then, or Winter Holiday Concert -- again, something inclusive.
2) That's something to "shop" for when we look for a house -- making sure the school district isn't all lily-white-Christian. I wouldn't be happy with that, either.

OK, yeah, I know most school bands are bad. s:) I also know I thought I hated Sleigh Ride in particular until I heard some good recordings. Every single school band ever has played it every single year -- I'm sick of it, good or bad.

[janinedog]

I went to Catholic and/or Christian school since fourth grade, so I'm probably going to be slightly biased here...

I celebrate Christmas, but I'm definitely not Christian in the sense that I practice Christianity. But I love Christmas carols. Even the ones about Jesus. When I was young, I never thought "Oh, this song is about Jesus and I don't really believe what it says so I shouldn't sing it." I sang it because it was pretty.

Personally, I think the kids don't really care. The carols are not really prayers or anything. They're so common that you hear them everywhere, and are almost secularized in that way. They may mention Jesus, but I doubt there are many kids who sing it and think of it as a way of honoring/worshiping Jesus. It's just a song.

[phoenixsong]

Foamy says: No Christmas For You! *eg*

(Blame nonfluffypagans. s:) )

[angiepenguin.livejournal.com]

Heh, in high school, our chorus was a joke.

I was part of my elementary school chorus, though. We sang some religious, some not... and a couple Chanukah songs that I've never heard since, nor do the lyrics come up in a Google search (I guess my music teacher made them up... or something). I think what we'd do is either we'd do all generic winter/santa songs, or we'd do those and include both Jesus songs and Chanukah songs.

On the other hand, when we went carolling (it was an optional part of chorus - and chorus itself was optional), we would sing both the generic stuff and the Jesus stuff.

I didn't have a religious upbringing (I never did believe in Jesus), but I'll agree with what janinedog said... the religious ones were pretty. I guess I like the stuff in minor key.

Actually, I don't think I even paid attention to the meaning of the lyrics until I was in 6th or 7th grade. And by that point, things were PC enough that we never sang the religious ones.

High school... every year the Joshua Club would put on a Jesus play during lunchtime, the audio of which would be heard pretty much everywhere on campus if you were outside. Nobody else did stuff for other religions, though I think most people didn't want the attention it would bring.

My actual opinion? Eh... well, I don't think there should be public schools in the first place, but since there are, think about this: Do you want your tax money to be paying for kids to sing religious songs? Even if you do... is it right for your neighbor to be paying for kids to be singing religious songs when he/she doesn't want to? My answer to both is no.
If no government(i.e. taxpayer) money was used to support the singing kids... well, to me, taxpayer money supporting the singing kids includes the use of property paid by the taxpayers - including the school grounds themselves. So if no taxpayer money supported the singing of religious songs, they wouldn't be singing on school grounds, and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

... This was longer than I expected it to be. Sorry about that. :P

[lite.livejournal.com]

Seen it.

Usually I agree with Foamy because he has a refreshing sense of common sense. This time, I disagree.
Because the baby jesus with an eyepatch does not belong in front of schools.