On Nationality

[hkellick]

Query: Why is it OK for Americans to bash America but not Canadians?
Obvious Answer: Because they don't live here.
Query: Is that reason good enough?

It's fascinating, the long and odd history that Canada and the United States has. We are possibly the most bitter rivals close friends can be.

It's funny, because, when it comes down to it... it seems that Canada is desperately waving it's hands going "LOOK! We're Not America! Look! We have our own culture! We have our own politics! Our own viewpoints!" And.. that's true.. Canada is NOT America... but it's pretty damned close.
We aren't too different, Canada and the United States.
What's REALLY the difference between The Kids in the Hall and The Royal Canadian Air Farce?
Or...Barenaked Ladies and Sugar Ray?
Not much.

If a Canadian makes it into the Top 40, it's a BIG DEAL! (That Shania Twain, she's a Canadian) not just in Canada, but in the US either.
It's not such a big deal if the singer/band is NOT Canadian, though.
Quick, what nation did U2 come from? ABBA? AC/DC?
Do you know?
Oh, but I bet you know that Bryan Adams is Canadian.

So why the bitter rivalry?

Part of it is blatant misunderstanding.
For example, and I ask all my Canadian friends out there (Especially you, rhayden).. have you ever LISTENED to the words to "Blame Canada"? or did you just hear the words "Blame Canada" and go "Oh god, more American shit."
It's funny, because I HAVE listened to the words. They're not really anti-Canadian, they're more anti-people who need to blame scapegoats for their own problems.
Part of it is a certain small-mindedness, on both side of the border. Sort of an "I'm better than you" attitude. But that's prevalent everywhere. When last I checked, we didn't have this sort of bitter rivalry with Britain or Australia or any of our other close allies. So I'm not sure that's REALLY it.

I'm not sure that the United States is any better than Canada, in any way. Our government is one of the best (which I suggest as true due to the number of rights we have compared to other countries), but theirs is good as well.
Are Canadian people better than American people? As a group? I doubt it. Person by person... depends.
Our culture... I don't know.. where does American Culture end and Canadian or British or Australian or whatever culture begin?
How do you define that?

The problem is... our world is getting smaller. Thanks to the Internet, we can talk to people all over the world.
Some think that this is a good reason to get to know each other, to find that we are not so different, to become more open-minded.
The fact of the matter is what the internet is REALLY GOOD for is for allowing people with similair interests to get to know each other, whether it's Star Trek, Cats or Anti-Americanism/Anti-Canadiasm.
In actuality, I think we're no more open-minded now than we were before. The internet is just another forum for hate to breed, whether in the petty machinations of a community like canadakicksass (which is at least as concerned with mocking Americans as discussing how Canada kicks ass ) or in more private conversations.

Though, between you all and me, I know plenty of otherwise intelligent Canadians mocking America, but few otherwise intelligent Americans mocking Canada. That's not to say there aren't any, just that I don't know of any. We're too busy being disgusted with other things (such as our own government) to really care what's going on in Canada and, hence, to mock it.

Anyways... this is a little rambly (aren't all my entries?) but hopefully I made my point.

Comments

[phinnia.livejournal.com]

Brief nitpick/piece of trivia: Bryan Adams is no longer considered Canadian content by those that govern that sort of thing.
I have some problems with the Canadian government... and I have problems with the American government (mostly tied to Bush and the way he's ruining the country). And I think that I (having lived in both places for a good while) have an interesting viewpoint.
The question "Where does American culture end and other cultures pick up" is interesting -- at least partly because American culture in the form of multinational companies like Macdonalds, Nike, blah blah et al, are everywhere. This is part of the problem. This is why it's difficult to see where one ends and the other picks up - because of the multinational corps that not only are everywhere overseas, but they make it difficult for companies based in other nations to make a stab in the market. For instance: I know you can find Starbucks everywhere: try finding a Second Cup in the US. Or that you can find a Macdonalds probably on the moon by now. Try finding a Harveys in Buffalo. (G*d I wish there was a Harveys in Buffalo.) And the multinational corporations push out smaller locally based businesses (not just in other countries but also here) thus making it less easy to tell American culture apart from the cultures of other nations, especially ones where there is no language difference. So part of the problem is big business.
There is a different Canadian culture. It's difficult to describe. But I can tell you it's there, because it took me a lot of time to adjust when I moved: from weeks to months to adjust to some things, and some of it I still have a lot of trouble with, even after three years plus, like the American attitude toward race, why there's no socialized medicine, and even little things.
My two cents. I'm not saying "you have no right to criticize", either, because you have a lot of valid points and obviously you're entitled to your opinion. But I wouldn't say there's no Canadian culture, or that Canadians are as close to being Americans as some people might think.

[lite.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying there's no Canadian culture at all. Far from it.
What I asked was.. where does one culture begin and one end?
Your description of American culture.. multinational corporations like McDonalds and Starbucks? I was thinking less along the lines of business and more along the lines of music, TV, movies and theatre.
Where does American Culture: Hollywood, Rock and Roll, whatever.. where does it end and the rest begin?

And I'm not saying Canadians are American.
But I don't think we're all that different. Just variations on a theme.
I'd suggest that most Europeans and Americans are variations on the same basic theme. A few differences, but compared to people who live in places like Afghanistan or Israel or Africa... we're very very similair.

My POINT was that Canadians seem to be scrambling to point out all the differences between us, to divorce themselves from America... and there are some differences, but there are alot more similarities.

Re:

[phinnia.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. But (just for the sake of discussion) how many of those similarities are based on multinational corporations and big businesses? How many of us all wear Levis and Abercrombie and Fitch? I think that culture was a lot more distinct before there were generic multinationals muddying the water.

[lite.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking of more basic similarities.
We both have the right to freedom of speech and thought.
We both have the right to choose what religion we are.
We both have the same basic rights for men and women.
We both have the right the choose what kind of life we want to live and what careers we want to choose.
We both deal with the same issues: Crime, Drugs, Freedom, Terrorism, Pollution.

Life in Canada is much like Life in the USA. You get born, you go to school, you work, you have a family and you die.

So what's the major differences between Canadians and the US?

Re:

[phinnia.livejournal.com]

One might say that most of what would be considered "first world" countries have similar rights and freedoms.

Differences I see:
Canada has socialized medicine ... and so do pretty much all other "first world" countries, while the US does not. As I see it, this is a bug. There is enough wealth in this country that no one should be without health care, but I know a LOT of people that have no health care or that have substandard crappy health care. OHIP isn't great, but it's better than even the health plan I had at UB.

I personally do not believe that the (as I see them) liberal gun laws here are a good thing. It bothers me horribly that I can walk into Wal-Mart and leave with a gun, and I don't think that the waiting period or background checking for gun licenses are thorough enough.

(Personal beef) The drinking age being 21 is silly. The people that will drink underage are going to drink underage whether it's 21 or not. Why waste money enforcing something that isn't working? Why not stick with the federal drinking age of 18 and make it like everything else, you'll end up saving money in silly enforcement costs.

Americans are more attuned to race and have more issues with race than Canadians do, as a culture. It weirds me out how much emphasis is placed on race here.

And Americans, as a whole, generally tend to generate more weird lawsuits over silly little things than any other group of people on earth. I don't know why that is, but I'd welcome any ideas.

[lite.livejournal.com]

I guess some of these I'd consider more minor difference (drinking age 19 or 21... I'd call that a minor difference) than others.

The race thing is spot on. We do tiptoe around that alot.. as for the fact that America, more than any other country is run (in part) by corporations.

As for the lawsuits... heh. yeah. The weird and utterly useless lawsuits. That's part of why I truly detest lawyers. Lawyers have their place in society.. and they do some good, but when they take these stupid cases like Big Fat GUy vs. McDonalds.. I'm sorry... you look like a dumbass.

[rhayden.livejournal.com]

I think Canadians are so busy scrambling to point out to the US that we're different from them because, if we don't, we're going to lose those differences.

If there weren't laws in place, we wouldn't see any Canadian content on TV. It's almost all American now as it is. It's a big deal if a Canadian artist makes the Top 40 because they're usually all snatched up my American labels who move them down to America.

A lot of people joke that Canada is the 51st state. Too many people actually see it as that.

[lite.livejournal.com]

Hmm... obvious question.
If almost all you see on TV is American... why? What does that say about what your nation is producing? I have issues believing 'The Big American Machine' is snatching them away from you.
And, from what I understand, most artists WANT to get onto the American Top 40 because the market is so much bigger down here (ie, bigger population)

And... I dunno.. that sounds paranoid.
If you don't struggle to be unlike us, you'll become us?
So... in other words, you have no other difference from us. You are so ENTIERLY LIKE US ALREADY that you have to struggle to point out your differences?

Re:

[rhayden.livejournal.com]

A lot of Canadian TV is filled with American programming because they can afford to buy up all the time slots.

And yes, hitting the American Top 40 -is- a goal for many artists. But that wasn't my point. Most of our good talent gets sucked into the US and becomes American, no longer being Canadian.

It may sound paranoid, but it's true. Canadians do not want to be thought of as the 51st state, so we struggle everyday to show that we're not.

On a completely different thought (maybe it's not so different), Americans pretend to be Canadian when they travel abroad. Why is this?

[lite.livejournal.com]

And yes, hitting the American Top 40 -is- a goal for many artists. But that wasn't my point. Most of our good talent gets sucked into the US and becomes American, no longer being Canadian.
And, at least of the cases I know, most do not.
Alanis Morisette still lives in Canada.
Barenaked Ladies
Nickelback, Shania Twain, Gordon Lightfoot, The Guess Who, Sarah McLachlan...
Stop me when I'm wrong here.

As for why do Americans pretend to be Canadian overseas? That's easy. Because there are people all around the world (not just Canada) who can not seperate everyday Americans from America and think that we're all heathens and materialistic and... whatever.

Re:

[rhayden.livejournal.com]

My brain isn't functioning right now, but I -know- there's a far longer list of Canadian bands who shipped out to the US. Our Lady Peace is one notable entry.

Americans pretend to be Canadians abroad because most foreign people dislike Americans, as they tend to be rude and obnoxious. Case in point: Courtney Love was recently her charming self on a flight.

Canadians, on the other hand, tend to be polite and courteous. It's part of our genetic makeup. :)

Americans travelling abroad are only trying to escape the reputation they've created for themselves.

[lite.livejournal.com]

My brain isn't functioning right now, but I -know- there's a far longer list of Canadian bands who shipped out to the US. Our Lady Peace is one notable entry.
I'm curious to see how this list matches up. Canadians who stay in Canada vs. those who leave.
Also, the question of why they LEAVE Canada to begin with seems a good question, but.. I dunno the answer.

Americans pretend to be Canadians abroad because most foreign people dislike Americans, as they tend to be rude and obnoxious.
Canadians, on the other hand, tend to be polite and courteous. It's part of our genetic makeup. :)
These are the types of comments that got you into trouble with xb95 and vissith and, for the record, I think they're bullshit.
SOME Americans are obnoxious. I'll be the first to admit that. Some of us are so utterly clueless it isn't even funny. But if you allow how a few Americans acted to taint your viewpoint on Americans, than you are incredibly closed-minded.
SOME Canadians are polite and courteous. I've met some that are not.
The point is... don't stereotype. Don't talk in stereotypes. You make no points when this is the best you can come up with.

Americans travelling abroad are only trying to escape the reputation they've created for themselves.
Correct.. but.. not.
Americans who choose to pretend to be Canadians do so because we ARE AWARE that SOME Americans have gone abroad and made asses of themsleves and that closed-minded people like you are learning to dislike us, so to avoid the entire hassle, they pretend to be Canadian.

Re:

[rhayden.livejournal.com]

Heh, and here I thought I was being diplomatic. Guess not. :)

Some Americans are asses when they travel, yes. I'm sure that some Canadians are asses too.

[trillain.livejournal.com]

I hate to sound like I don't care about the rest of the post by just addressing this one thing, but since you aren't on Chaotic...

The Royal Canadian Air Farce is an American group of people? O.o

[lite.livejournal.com]

Ae you saying that Kids in the Hall are Canadian? O.o
If so... oops.. bad choice :)

[kareila]

Yep, they are. Ha ha. :)

I think more people know that U2 are Irish than know that Bryan Adams is Canadian.

To address your larger point... I think there's an important distinction that needs to be addressed between people's reactions to American government and American culture. As Americans, we're much more likely to criticize our own government than our own culture, and to understand outside criticisms of such.

[lite.livejournal.com]

*nods* We're so swamped with multimedia corporate brainwashing that it's amazing for us to imagine a place without a McDonalds or Starbucks or Levi jeans... and since there are fewer and fewer places without them, well...

[jillsmyth.livejournal.com]

But who needs a Starbucks when ya got a Tim's? :D

[angiepenguin.livejournal.com]

I didn't know that Bryan Adams was Canadian... I don't even know what songs he sings, only that it's Adult Contemporary stuff.

I know U2 is Irish, and ABBA is Norweigian (took me a sec to remember, tho... Sweden came to mind first, though I knew it wasn't right). I'd forgotten that AC/DC wasn't from the US... they're Austrailian or something, right?

Though I do know that the BeeGees grew up in Austrailia.

I know William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, and Neil Young (another one for your 60's list ;) are Canadian.

Never been to Canada, myself. Never been north of Vegas. Been within about 30 miles of the Mexican border, though.

Red Green is amusing. :D

[lite.livejournal.com]

Red Green is amusing. :D
eh? Wot?

[kareila]

http://www.redgreen.com/

[vissith.livejournal.com]

Query: Why is it OK for Americans to bash America but not Canadians?
Obvious Answer: Because they don't live here.
Query: Is that reason good enough?

Yes and no.

When I (an American) bash America, some quick assumptions are made.
1) I'm bashing something specific
2) I'm bashing it because I care how it effects my life or the life of others
3) I have ideas about how to make it better

This isn't always accurate. I could just be a loudmouth. In fact, if I carry on too much without saying anything constructive, these assumptions will fade and people will start to hate me.

When someone else bashes America that isn't American, they don't get the benefit of the doubt. They have no allegiance to us; they don't live here; they probably aren't 100% informed of the issues. So the assumptions that are made are:
1) They are bashing something specific, but in turn, this translates into bashing on the country as a whole
2) They are bashing it because it's stupid (haha, stupid American dumbfucks), or because it's a foreign policy decision that effects them
3) If they don't present anything constructive, we don't give them the benefit of the doubt (they don't live here, why do they care if it gets better)? So we assume they are a loudmouth.

Again this isn't always true. But these are the assumptions we make because as with any group, it's easier to assume that someone internal to the group wants to see an improvement, and someone external to the group just wants you to go away.

Another problem is that external commentators often punctuate their criticism with stuff like "Stupid Americans." or something like that, which re-targets their issue against all individual Americans. Hearing "Bush is a fucking moron" is one thing; hearing "America is so fucking stupid" is an insult on a personal level.

So that's the way I see it. If you are external to the group you have every right to complain, but there is a bit more burden of proof on your side that you aren't just a loudmouthed moron. It's too easy to hate something you're not part of; I can't assume that you aren't just running your mouth and that you actually have something intelligent to say.

[vissith.livejournal.com]

I forgot one.

If an American bashes America, it's because they're frustrated with the state of affairs.

If a non-American bashes America, it's often to give themselves a sense of superiority. In bashing a group external to their own, they "elevate" theirs.

One more reason that the burden of proof of their intentions is higher for non-Americans bashing our country.

It isn't just about America/Canada anyway. The same stuff happens internally in our country. Stupid Democrats! / Stupid Republicans!. In that case though, these are splinter groups inside a larger group. We're all still American, we just rally into sub-groups in order to facilitate inflating our sense of superiority. This is why you don't hear Americans bashing Canada too much; we're too busy beating on each other, especially with a renoB like Bush in office. I don't know much about Candian internal politics, but it seems like they don't have the same sort of insane party/politics issues so their favorite target is us.

[dustkitten.livejournal.com]

Quick, what nation did U2 come from? ABBA? AC/DC?

Ireland. Sweden. Isn't Angus Scottish, but the rest of them are British?

-A-

[lite.livejournal.com]

Incorrect. AC/DC is Australian. :)
Good try though.
Let me tell you what you didn't win.. a lifetime supply of Turtle Wax, ChaoticMUX monopoly and a trip to Venice!

[dustkitten.livejournal.com]

Blame Adam, I knew the first two but I said "Hey, is AC/DC Scottish or something?" and he was like "No, British..I think."

So..blame Adam!