The Only (I think?) Anti-Christian/Anti-Jewish post I'll ever make

[hkellick]

A bunch of people are making long ass poses discussing their spirituality. And after a long and interesting discussion with ecwoodburn about religion, I feel the need to vent my own soul too.

However, not so terribly long ago, I already wrote up my spiritual past and I won't get back into it again.
However, after reading some of your entries and definately after talking with ecwoodburn, I am now going to explain why I could never go back to Judaism or step into Christianity.

And so, onto the Anti-Christianity/Anti-Judaism portion.
Why I could never be Christian or Jewish
1) I don't believe in your god.
2) I don't like most of your fellow church/templegoers.

Let's explore these more in depths.
On God
One of the main tenets of major religions is that god is just, all-knowing, all-loving, forgiving etc.
Of course, the obvious questions like "How can God allow XXX to occur?" can't be answered.
This life, this world, is filled with tragedies, mostly small-scaled, but some large-scaled.
The Holocaust, 9/11, Terrible fires, floods, deaths, wars, rapes, abuse.
People robbed of all their savings by money-hungry corporations, children abused by clergy, kids fighting an unjust war shot to death while buying CDs.
God has allowed all of it. To be honest, it's so prevalent in today's society that we've become desensitized to some of it. It's become so prevalent we ceased to be shocked when we see a woman get raped on TV, stories of children trapped in cars in 90 degree weather etc.
How can an all-knowing and all-good God ALLOW for these things to happen?
I think that's the major turning point for all people. At some point, all people of all major religions have to turn to their peers, their clergy, their parents and ask "How could god/gods/etc. allow this to happen?" And either you lose faith or you don't.
An interesting theory I've heard kicked around in the past few years is that "Yes, god allows this to happen. He allows this to happen so that you can become a better person from it, to learn and grow."
But I don't believe that for a second. The people with this belief are trying to mollify their own and their peers troubled soul because so much of what goes on today, there's nothing to learn from.
What are you supposed to learn from being raped?
What are you supposed to learn from having your child taken from you when some bastard takes an airplane and wraps it around a skyscraper?
And do any of these lessons truly compare to the lessons you may have learned if these tragedies, small and large scale alike, didn't occur?
If any of you truly have faith in the JudeoChristianMuslim God and can answer for him, by all means go ahead.
Explain to me why God allows these things to happen.

I was talking to dawnstar yesterday and one of the things I said is that the only good thing I can say about my father is that I'm a better person because of, or perhaps despite him. And she and coderlemming both asked "How do you really know?"
And I can't answer.
How do I know I'm a better man for having a father as terrible as mine was compared to no father at all or, completely differently, a good father? I don't. I can't. There is no way to answer that question because I don't have the power to run a controlled experiment contrasting me as I am now with a me who had no father or me with had a good father.
The only one with that sort of capability would be God.
And here's where I bring the point around.
How can you really say that your life is better for living through the tragedies and the terribleness that life can bring?
Is it truly divine will? Some ineffable plan? Or is God a fucking bastard with a nasty sense of humor and a terribly nasty streak.
Let's see what the Bible, another major tenet has to say about that.
Well well well... according to the old testament at least, it looks like God's a fucking bastard: mass killings (Story of Noah's Ark anyone?), countlessly testing his people to see if they love him (Sacrifice of Isaac), destroying anyone who didn't believe in him, despite the fact that supposedly he created them all.
According to Christian theology, anyone who doesn't believe in him (keeping in mind that he created everyone), goes to hell to suffer eternal torment.
This doesn't sound like the works of a just, all-knowing, all-loving etc. God to me.
And this is why I can never turn back to God.

Editted: - Yes, upon talking with others and listening to the comments, I am now going to edit this post.
Followers
And with the Segue, let's get into y'all (and when I say y'all, I don't really mean those of you reading this, since most of you are generally more enlightened than the common mass)
The editting begins with this.. if I'm going to be fair, I don't know too many christians. Those that I do know (and you know you are), I don't consider to be a fair crosssection of the main populace. Maybe that's an unfair assumption, but given that I have more negative experiences with christians than positives ones, it's all I have to work with.
To me, the epitome of the Bad Christian (and unfortunately the stereotype of what a "good christian" is supposed to be in America) is currently running our country. He fights because he is morally right and god speaks to him daily to tell him so.
How I define a Bad Christian are these right wing extremists (and it seems like there are an awful lot of them making asses of themselves in all sorts of ways) who don't actually follow what Jesus himself wrote. You know these people when you see them. They're the ones who feel prayer belongs in schools, that homosexuality is evil, that harry potter is evil and any host of small-minded and stupid thoughts. Worse yet, and the thought that has always bothered me the most is that any nonbelieves of christ are doomed to hell. Which, as dustkitten pointed out, Jesus never said.
These people seem to be everywhere. They made big asses of themselves when Williamsville School District tried to put some distance between themselves and Christmas. They're all over the news, especially in politics. They even occasionally come onto MU**s to convert people.
Alot of evil has happened in the name of christianity. In truth, alot of good probably has too, but (again, this part is editted), to be fair, I don't know of much of it.
I can not believe for a second that Jesus Christ would ever have stood for using his name as you marches across the holy lands in the Medieval Ages and took it from those living there. He'd have turned in his grave as people used his name to support unjust and terrible actions against people.
(Edit Finished)

These two reasons are why I could never turn back to these monotheistic religions, especially any religion that believes in an all-good, all-knowing god. And I plainly refuse to ever bow my knee to any bastard that could allow the things that happen to happen. Ever.
And now you know.

I'll leave comments on. If you want to argue with me, flame me, tell me I'm a stupidhead moron who should shut up and never talk again, you may do so.
Though I reserve the rights to delete any comments that are too abusive.

Back to work.

Comments

[phoenixsong]

I was talking to dawnstar yesterday and one of the things I said is that the only good thing I can say about my father is that I'm a better person because of, or perhaps despite him. And she and stile both asked "How do you really know?"
And I can't answer.
How do I know I'm a better man for having a father as terrible as mine was compared to no father at all or, completely differently, a good father? I don't. I can't. There is no way to answer that question because I don't have the power to run a controlled experiment contrasting me as I am now with a me who had no father or me with had a good father.

No, you can't run a "controlled experiment", but on the other hand, life (as we perceive it, anyway) is hardly controlled in the first place.

On the other hand, I think you do know you're better, because you have a pretty good example of what sort of person you do NOT want to be. It's horrible in some ways that it had to be a negative rather than positive example, but you can still take something from that. You have a concrete example of what a bad father is like, and to this day, you take clues from that on how you want to be different.

I think you've also had a positive example in what your mom's been able to do for herself since the divorce. Think about the kind of hell (pun only half intended) she's been through, and how in spite of it she's still managed to do pretty well for herself and her sons. It's sucked along the way, but would you honestly say she's learned nothing from it? I think that would be giving her less credit than she deserves.

If I hadn't been adopted, I wouldn't have gone through some horrible things like the incident before my 18th birthday. On the other hand, I also likely wouldn't have ever met blackfelicula, which has been one of the most enduring friendships in my life to this point.

9/11? Yes, it sucked a lot for a lot of people. I will never, ever say otherwise. It also brought a lot of people together, very quickly, in a way that wouldn't have been possible under less extreme circumstances. It was said after the blackout last month that things in NYC might have been a lot crazier if it weren't for 9/11 -- people would have been a lot less sensitive and caring, even if they also wouldn't have been as frightened by it. The Red Cross, sadly, could never have inspired as many people to donate blood and time on its own. Many fewer people would have realized what a messy position the U.S. had put itself in before that point. (What Bush has done, or failed to do, with the multi-national support we had for a short time after that, I lay directly at his feet and the feet of those running the PNAC kolys posted about the other day -- not any of those responsible for planning 9/11 in the first place.)

There is always another side to any great triumph or great tragedy. The question is, can you look beyond your own limited scope and find it? I think the world would be a better place if more people rose to that challenge, instead of basking in their own glory or despair.

[lite.livejournal.com]

I'll concede that maybe we do become better people after we've gone through some great personal loss. The whole "That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger" argument is valid.

I guess I'm trying to step away from the whole "Well, look at the silver lining" ideal and asking whether or not this is the best way to live.

I mean, basically the point is we seem to learn better when we're in pain, when we've lost, then we do when we're happy. Why? Is this the best world we could live in? Is there no other way?

Why do we HAVE to live in a world where this random nasty violence and stupidity has to exist on a daily basis?
This is why I can't believe in the JudeoChristianMuslim God. Because if he does exist, if he did create the world, then he's either a nasty bastard or one who truly fucked up this world.

[phoenixsong]

I think that whatever Divine Force is running the universe DOES speak to us, trying to teach us from small good things, every single day. The problem is, if you allow yourself to be desensitized to violence, you also are more likely to dismiss these small goodnesses as flukes, accidents.

In my belief system, the big bad things happen when large groups of people ignore the small good things. "If you're not going to listen to Me, and use your free will to appreciate and act upon the good things in your life, I don't really have much choice but to send something bigger that will get your attention."

And don't try to tell me this is just a JudeoChristianMuslim belief. I'm pretty sure at least some pagan theology follows the same logic. Mt. Vesuvius destroying Pompeii was probably seen as an act of the gods. There are probably lots of other examples from mythology that are escaping me at the moment.

You point to Noah's Ark as an Old Testament example that the JCM God is a bastard (and I hope those reading will forgive my abreviation). I can think of some others, too. The plagues in Egypt. The Hebrews having to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. Exile to Babylon. You know what? Each of these was immediately preceeded by God showing great kindness to His people, and His people turning around and saying, in pride, "Ah, all our good fortune is due to our own power and supremacy, we don't need no stinkin' Jehovah!" God then would send prophets to warn the people that their pride was going to their heads, that they should thank God for their blessings. The prophets were ignored, the people went on in their pride since things were still pretty good. BANG! God loses His temper and punishes them.

According to the Torah, this went on for at least a thousand years. And you know, in the 2500 or so years since the end of the Torah/Old Testament, people haven't changed all that much. Christianity started out trying to change that, but as soon as it changed from a faith to an institution (around 300 C.E.), the institution reverted right back to the same mindset: "We're God's elect, screw you all! Oh wait, why does such terrible stuff happen to us? Gee, it can't be because we're messing up, so it must be because of all the other horrible people who don't believe in our God!" (BS logic, if I do say so.)

BTW, the people who go door-to-door are generally Mormons, aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This is a completely different form of Christianity from both most Protestant sects, and Roman Catholicism, not to mention the actual teachings of Christ. If you expect anyone to give your arguments credence, love, you need to quit lumping all people who revere Jesus the Nazorean in a religious context together. Catholics would be rather offended by being lumped together with Mormons or born-again Christians, Protestants resent being lumped with "those Popish Mary-worshipers," and born-agains generally look down their nose at anyone who isn't born-again but still claims to be Christian. (If you want to go with devout stereotypes, that is.)

[lite.livejournal.com]

Except for a few details, most of what I've said, at least about God, applies to Christians of all faiths.
Admittedly, I don't know too much about the different sects of Christianity.
I'm trying to steer the argument away from stereotypes because I can't argue stereotypes intelligently as I'll sound like an ass.
My argument concerning the followers of CHrist is currently that while I concede that some are good worshippers, my own experiences with Christians has been generally more negative than positive. I know a few good christians but I've been annoyed and harassed, in person and those institution I support by loud, annoying christians.
Maybe it's an unfair fact of humanity, but we tend to remember the bad over the good and as such, these people have left a bad taste in my mouth regarding christians in general.

I won't argue the Torah with you, but consider the following scenario. I go up to you one day and tell you that if you don't start.. watching football, then I'm going to punish you, would you do it?
Chances are pretty high you wouldn't. You've never done it before and you see no reason to start now.
God sent those prophets down knowing full well that he was going to end up punishing the Egyptians or Romans or what not. (Especially if you keep in mind that god is, in fact, all-knowing)
It's an unfair test and he knew it. So how is this something a fair and just and good god should be doing?
Another perfect example.
One might say all evil stems because in the Garden of Eden, Eve went and ate the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (or whatever it was called.).
But before that, God had created this tree and planted it in the Garden of Eden and created Serpents who, apparently, were terrible evil tempters and created a burning sense of curiosity that has plagued men for years.
THEN said "Whatever you do, don't do this."
Another unfair test.

You bring up Pagan religions. The major difference between Pagan and JCM is that JCM claims their god is all-knowing, just etc.. whereas Pagans never did. Take a look at any theology and you'll see gods as jealous, small-minded and otherwise silly as the people who worshipped them. That's the sort of god I can believe in, one who makes the same sorts of mistakes we do.

[soreth.livejournal.com]

Amusingly, "That which does not kill me makes me stronger" was first said (or at least published) by Nietzsche.

[trillain.livejournal.com]

Mmm, Nietzsche.

~
That's really all I have to add, I don't think I need to add any more fuel.

[phoenixsong]

Oh, and for the record -- most of any of the above who call themselves Christians would definitely tell you Unitarian Universalists aren't Christians. So, for that matter, would most UUs. s:) UU is probably closer in a lot of ways to what blackfelicula posted yesterday. And you've seen their place, you don't get much more pagan (i.e., non-JCM) than blackfelicula and mechanchaos.

Just thought I'd toss that in there, seeing as you seemed to equate UU with Christianity yesterday when we were talking. If you want more information on UU, check http://www.uua.org.

Oh, and I'd probably say that most of the people on your friends list that are part of any organized religion, also know at least a handful of other "good" types of whatever faith they happen to follow. I'm with dustkitten on this one, there are hundreds of thousands of good, average Christians, Jews and Muslims, as well as any sort of Pagans, out there. It's the crazy ones that get all the air time, and yes, I personally would include GWB in that statement. s:P~ The only time Clinton's spirituality got any sort of media airtime, you may recall, was when the Lewinski scandal broke, i.e. he was having a spiritual crisis. And personally, while in some ways it was good to see he sincerely felt badly about it, at the same time I don't think it was really anyone's business. Clinton's spirituality didn't interfere with his ability to do his job. GWB's does, on a frighteningly regular basis, it's just disguised to make it appear that it's an important part of his job.

[lite.livejournal.com]

Kindly reread my post now. I've edited it. I agree with you that there are hundreds of good average Jews, Christians and Muslims. I also want to point out that there are hundreds of BAD average Jews, Christians and Muslims.
I don't know where the numbers stand, but I've taken that portion of the post out anyways and rewritten, expressing my grief with the bad ones.

[dustkitten.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in "God allows things to happen." I believe in free will. Man allows things to happen. Man does things. If you want the hand of God to reach down and flick a rapist off someone..that's not really exactly what makes free will, or faith.

(you=non-specific person)

What are you supposed to learn from being raped?

Let's see. I learned not to date a drug-using, drug dealing guy who screws around with random chicks. I learned that safety is more important than trust in the beginning of a relationship. I learned about power, and how it can be used against a person. I learned to be stronger. I learned that you can't change someone with love. I learned a ton of things, some of them good, some of them not so good.

*

Further down into your post, you say you loathe this Judeo-Christian God and his followers. Hm..that's me, isn't it? And Kareila. And Andi...Interesting comment to make.

Jesus said, "He who believes in me will never die" not "If you don't believe in me, burn motherfucker burn."

Using George Bush as an example for Christians is like me saying that all football fans paint themselves in team colors and only drink large quantities of beer and chips.

You know as well as I that any system is as flawed as the people in it. And idiot majority often rules. For each crysaliq, there's someone like me. I'm happy to be a Christian, and if someone wants to know more, I'll tell them or point them in a good direction, but I don't carry tracts or make hellfire judgments.

*

The God of the OT is..interesting. Lots of hands at that point. Lots of judgment. Then nothing until Jesus. And while Jesus fulfilled the Books of the Law (in the eyes of the Christians), thus proving himself the Messiah, it was in a way that seems to completely contradict the OT. It seemed almost like the OT God had to show reasons to have faith, and Jesus backed it up with "If you don't got it, you don't got it."

Ignorant people will use anything they can to prove their point, whether it's religion or insults or just repeating the same thing over again.

Just because these people grab the attention of the media doesn't make them the voice of Christianity. It makes them the kind of people who want to stand in front of a camera, who want to shove the world into their worldview.

I have a church I feel I belong to, even tho with my work schedule, I haven't been there much in the past year or so. The people are very sweet. Yes, they believe the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong, but why shouldn't they when that's what their Bible says? They want to follow what they think is right. And I'm sure there are annoying people within this community, but for the most part, you have a lot of really good people. And this isn't the first church I've liked. There are ones like it all over the place. Just happy, content people of faith.

I think you should stop and think of the people in your life who are Jewish and Christian--people in your life, not people you see on TV or read about in the media. And then think about how many of them are assholes. (*cougcryscough*) And then how many aren't. Then get back to me and tell me about the followers of the Judeo-Christian God.

-A-

[lite.livejournal.com]

I'll say it here. Yes, and as I pointed out, most of the people *I* know aren't big scary evil christians. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Like I said earlier, simply because I don't know any terrorists by name doesn't mean they don't exist either.

Jesus may have said "He who believes in me will never die" but every christian who has made a nuisance in my life (And no, I don't know their names, but you see them.. they knock on your doors, they write angry letters in the press, they make theirselves known) say "Believe in him or you'll burn."
And my argument isn't with Christians who actually follow the word of Jesus so much as those who don't.

You want me to look at the people in my life and I suggest to you that that is NOT a fair cross-section of Christians. I know a handful of Christians and there are far far far more than that.
So if I really want a good idea how the typical person (of any race, religion, sex etc.) thinks, how else am I supposed to pick it out but through the media, hmm?

I also suggest you look up at my comments to ecwoodburn about why I can't believe in the JudeoChristian god. Yes, there might be a silver lining to the constant barrage of violence and stupidity, but I fail to believe that an all-good and all-knowing god can't do better than this.

[dustkitten.livejournal.com]

When was the last time the media picked up a story about an average person, having a happy, average day?

Yes, let's use the media. They aren't going for ratings or anything.

-A-

[phoenixsong]

Amen. s:) Why do you think that anything good that shows up on the local news is held until the last 30 seconds of the half-hour? Because people want to end with a feel-good note, and because stations know that if they reported good stuff first instead of tragedies, they'd lose viewers. It's all a ratings scam.

[lite.livejournal.com]

The obvious question, of course, then is to define how the average XXX (it doesn't matter what you fill in here.. Woman, Christian, Gay Person) really thinks otherwise.
Knowing a friend of a friend thinks that doesn't help. Altogether every friends of every friend I have still doesn't constitute the majority of the populace.

Maybe using the media itself isn't fair, but feel free to suggest something else that gives a fairer cross-section.

[nissacrosseyed.livejournal.com]

If you are ever looking for a good book series that goes into the very problems you mention in this here post, I'd recommend The Sparrow and The Children of God by Mary Doria Russell. The first book describes awful, awful things that have happened to a group of people. And the second tries to reconcile that with the Judeo-Christian belief. It was probably the best, most honest attempt I have ever seen.

And that aint Catholic theology. The Church, from my understanding, teaches that Christ will do anything to be reunited with his people, maybe even after death (aka purgatory). And that we don't know how far his saving power goes. Think about it. We believe he is God, yet we try to limit what sort of salvation he is capable of.

And I agree with dustkitten. How many christians/jews that you know personally are really that bad of people or live their faith so poorly? What have I done that you loathe so much, what has she done? None of my friends who are Christians are small minded. Not a one of them. Don't you agree that politicians in general aren't the sort of people you like? Couldn't that have anything to do with your distaste?

And I stand to say that all the good things that Christians and Jews do all around the world aren't covered much in the media. I can't talk for any other denominations, really, but I do know that the Catholic Church loses lots of money each year to funding social justice and service projects all over the world. Wherever there is a major problem, be it hunger, war, or other injustices, I venture to say that there is someone from the Catholic Church there, comforting those that need it. That gets so easily discounted because people don't hear about it, they only hear about the things that will sell movies.

Look at a biography on the current pope (there is a good movie out called Witness to Hope, I only saw part of it, but it was really good); he was instrumental in helping the iron curtain to come down in eastern europe. He helped to make the focus of the modern church change more towards human rights and social justice. He is an amazing man who I greatly admire. Look at Mother Theresa, can you really discount what she has done, what her organization, the Sisters of Charity, still do? Can you look at the thousands of priests and nuns who have sacraficed all other things, their entire life, for the opportunity to serve others and after that still say that Christians are small minded pig headed people?

Whoa, that's enough for now. :)

[nissacrosseyed.livejournal.com]

I take it back. I really think you should read the books by Mary Russell. You are reminding me of the main character, and if nothing else, you might be amused by that. The second book has to be one of my favorite books I've ever read, so they aren't poorly written at all.

[lite.livejournal.com]

I may check that book out. I'm at least curious to see how it attempts to reconcile these things with the Faith.

Your points are valid but keep in mind that the only christians I know about are you people (who, as I said above, I would not necessarily consider a fair cross section of any sort of population.)
I look at you and dustkitten and kholnuu and ecwoodburn and I attempt to reconcile it with what I really see about Christians in general out there and I'd still say that you are extraordinary Christians and not the norm.

The pope.. I wouldn't look upon the pope with starry eyes. He's done wonders to help the iron curtain come down and may have made great strides towards human rights and social justice, but he still denies homosexuality, marrying priests and has done little to nothing with the whole American Priest scandal.

I won't deny that there are plenty of every day people trying their best to make a difference and maybe, in that respect, I'm being unfair since I don't see these people and they have nothing to do with my life. In that respect, I probably am being unfair.

[nissacrosseyed.livejournal.com]

Well, even if a good amount of Christians are what you say:

Look at Americans. Look at Bush, look at all the other bad Americans out there. Does that make America bad? Once you start to stereotype, you might as well continue onto every other organization that could easily be misrepresented by it's followers or members.

The fact is that we can't look at any human and attribute one cause to their behavior. They are more complicated than that. One of my most favorite parts of the bible is when we are told not to judge others because we don't understand whatever they have gone through. We haven't lived the life of any other human, we can't understand fully what motivates them.

As an illustration, defense for at least some of the pope's actions, things you probably never knew before today but unfairly (as we all do) judged him on:

Actually, once you understand the pope's beliefs on our sexuality, he simply can't back down on certain things without denying a little of our dignity as human persons. But you probably don't want to get into that, unless you've read something explaining why the pope believes what he does, do you? (If you are interested, I have another awesome book that explains it quite well.)

Homosexuality is a whole bag of worms in itself, not to be handled lightly when you don't understand the theology behind what the pope is saying. Frankly, I don't think a lot of protestants do understand it. The same theology behind this also argues against birth control and more for self control in our sexual unions, but that isn't something a single protestant church will attest to. Do you consider me a bad person if I don't think same-sex marriages are good things, either?

And married priests. Frankly, a priest takes a vow to marry themselves to the Church. How can they then marry another human being? It would be unfair to call them to be spouses to both, someone would suffer. Being a Catholic priest is harder than it looks. They take vows of obediance, poverty, chastity. They work every day of the week, they have church services nearly every day (in contrast to Protestant ministers that may have them twice a week at most and often have many ministers on staff at any parish). They take on more than just church services, though. They celebrate births, marriages, deaths... they counsel people in their times of trouble... they work more than 40 work weeks on a very regular basis, I can assure you. And with the priest shortage, they are oftentimes doing this for more than one parish, sometimes as many as 3 or 4. Can you really see a healthy marriage stemming from someone who is called to be that devoted to their work? Especially from a faith system that sees marriage as such an important and beautiful thing worthy of much time and devotion?

There are plenty of other vocations out there for married folk. (For an example, look at myasma, a man who is training to become a decon.) Marriage itself is considered a vocation, on par with priesthood. It would require a huge twist in theology, a total rethinking of what marriage and religious life mean, for that to change.

The American branch of the Catholic Church has very much been a rogue amongst the nations. No matter if the pope said something or not, I highly doubt the bishops would listen much to his commands. Despite that I do agree with you, I think he should say more on it than he has.

Frankly, our brains are wired to stereotype; we wouldn't be able to function if we couldn't sort through the massive amount of input we get on a daily basis and make some generalizations. We all stereotype, really. But we also can agree that it isn't the most fair thing to do sometimes....

[nissacrosseyed.livejournal.com]

I mean, just think about it for a moment:

The pope has lived for 80+ years, and atleast 60 of those years, he has a priest. One of his primary things he has done is reflect on all the teachings of Christ. He has been thinking theology for atleast 60 years. 3 times my lifetime, atleast 2 times yours. He has been thinking about this stuff for that long, really. And his main focus, even in his early years, was rethinking of our sexuality as it relates to our spirituality.

I don't think anybody can fault him for sticking to his guns on this one, really.

[soreth.livejournal.com]

There are quite a few reasons why an omnipotent, omniscient (and possibly wholly benevolent) deity would let life be a shitpot full of horrible horrible events. Not that I'll try and convince you of anything, since it seems you've already cemented your viewpoint on the matter, and you've got this whole big rant to make you look foolish if you back down on everything. But hell, give me a buzz about it sometime if you're interested in hearing a few reasons why life might suck even with something like the Christian conception of God running things. Don't forget... I think through this kind of crap daily. :)

[lite.livejournal.com]

I'm curious.
I expect you're going to say something about free will, but I must admit I'm curious what your argument is.
So go ahead.

[soreth.livejournal.com]

"Free Will" is just the first stop. :)

The first, most obvious reason is that this God believes in letting everyone have their freedom of will, and furthermore, will allow a person to exercise it constantly, even for making bad decisions... presumably in the hopes that they'll realize their mistakes and get it right next time.

But there are other potential reasons, too. For example, what if there's an eternal Heaven, and being there is just so good that it literally makes up for even a theoretically infinite amount of crappiness in a person's life? In that case, the shit in the world doesn't even matter - it's only temporary, and any harm it's done is just going to be washed away completely by the trip to the afterworld.

Or... and here's a weird one: what if God is not as omnipotent as He's been made out to be? What if "all-powerfulness" has a limit, and God is using all that power to the very limit just keeping things from getting worse? Or what if there's a Satan-like figure who is just as powerful as God, and those two are continually counteracting each other, leaving mere mortals entirely up to their own devices?

Or... what if there's going to be (literally) Paradise on Earth or some other amazingly good turn of events that can only come about from all this shitty history?

There are a few more, but they hinge a lot on definitions of what constitutes a "being such that no other being can be greater than it" - one of the common definitions of God.

[kareila]

I don't think you're stupid, and I don't think anyone is wrong or right here.

Religion (and more secularly, philosophy in general) is about the search for answers. The faiths you reject are providing answers you don't like... so keep searching for better ones. If you look hard enough and far enough and keep an open mind, you will find them.

Also, keep in mind that different people are looking for different answers. That's why I dislike organized religion in general.

[lite.livejournal.com]

You are my hero :)

[phoenixsong]

Personally, that's one of the reasons I'm looking at Unitarian Universalism -- there's no dogma or creed to speak of, and they're all about a "responsible search" for personal truth. I may be a religion geek and a compulsive reader, but when it comes to actual worship, in some ways I'm just more comfortable in a group.

[lite.livejournal.com]

I've been doing some looking into UU since you started suggesting you sort of like them.
I don't disagree with most of their points and I can see the wisdom they preach.
I guess the part about them, the one part I'm still stuck on is the bit where they still pray as a communittee. I don't want to be a part of some communittee prayer. I'm not comfortable with that.