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hkellickA bunch of people are making long ass poses discussing their spirituality. And after a long and interesting discussion with ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ecwoodburn about religion, I feel the need to vent my own soul too.
However, not so terribly long ago, I already wrote up my spiritual past and I won't get back into it again.
However, after reading some of your entries and definately after talking withecwoodburn, I am now going to explain why I could never go back to Judaism or step into Christianity.
And so, onto the Anti-Christianity/Anti-Judaism portion.
Why I could never be Christian or Jewish
1) I don't believe in your god.
2) I don't like most of your fellow church/templegoers.
Let's explore these more in depths.
On God
One of the main tenets of major religions is that god is just, all-knowing, all-loving, forgiving etc.
Of course, the obvious questions like "How can God allow XXX to occur?" can't be answered.
This life, this world, is filled with tragedies, mostly small-scaled, but some large-scaled.
The Holocaust, 9/11, Terrible fires, floods, deaths, wars, rapes, abuse.
People robbed of all their savings by money-hungry corporations, children abused by clergy, kids fighting an unjust war shot to death while buying CDs.
God has allowed all of it. To be honest, it's so prevalent in today's society that we've become desensitized to some of it. It's become so prevalent we ceased to be shocked when we see a woman get raped on TV, stories of children trapped in cars in 90 degree weather etc.
How can an all-knowing and all-good God ALLOW for these things to happen?
I think that's the major turning point for all people. At some point, all people of all major religions have to turn to their peers, their clergy, their parents and ask "How could god/gods/etc. allow this to happen?" And either you lose faith or you don't.
An interesting theory I've heard kicked around in the past few years is that "Yes, god allows this to happen. He allows this to happen so that you can become a better person from it, to learn and grow."
But I don't believe that for a second. The people with this belief are trying to mollify their own and their peers troubled soul because so much of what goes on today, there's nothing to learn from.
What are you supposed to learn from being raped?
What are you supposed to learn from having your child taken from you when some bastard takes an airplane and wraps it around a skyscraper?
And do any of these lessons truly compare to the lessons you may have learned if these tragedies, small and large scale alike, didn't occur?
If any of you truly have faith in the JudeoChristianMuslim God and can answer for him, by all means go ahead.
Explain to me why God allows these things to happen.
I was talking todawnstar yesterday and one of the things I said is that the only good thing I can say about my father is that I'm a better person because of, or perhaps despite him. And she and coderlemming both asked "How do you really know?"
And I can't answer.
How do I know I'm a better man for having a father as terrible as mine was compared to no father at all or, completely differently, a good father? I don't. I can't. There is no way to answer that question because I don't have the power to run a controlled experiment contrasting me as I am now with a me who had no father or me with had a good father.
The only one with that sort of capability would be God.
And here's where I bring the point around.
How can you really say that your life is better for living through the tragedies and the terribleness that life can bring?
Is it truly divine will? Some ineffable plan? Or is God a fucking bastard with a nasty sense of humor and a terribly nasty streak.
Let's see what the Bible, another major tenet has to say about that.
Well well well... according to the old testament at least, it looks like God's a fucking bastard: mass killings (Story of Noah's Ark anyone?), countlessly testing his people to see if they love him (Sacrifice of Isaac), destroying anyone who didn't believe in him, despite the fact that supposedly he created them all.
According to Christian theology, anyone who doesn't believe in him (keeping in mind that he created everyone), goes to hell to suffer eternal torment.
This doesn't sound like the works of a just, all-knowing, all-loving etc. God to me.
And this is why I can never turn back to God.
Editted: - Yes, upon talking with others and listening to the comments, I am now going to edit this post.
Followers
And with the Segue, let's get into y'all (and when I say y'all, I don't really mean those of you reading this, since most of you are generally more enlightened than the common mass)
The editting begins with this.. if I'm going to be fair, I don't know too many christians. Those that I do know (and you know you are), I don't consider to be a fair crosssection of the main populace. Maybe that's an unfair assumption, but given that I have more negative experiences with christians than positives ones, it's all I have to work with.
To me, the epitome of the Bad Christian (and unfortunately the stereotype of what a "good christian" is supposed to be in America) is currently running our country. He fights because he is morally right and god speaks to him daily to tell him so.
How I define a Bad Christian are these right wing extremists (and it seems like there are an awful lot of them making asses of themselves in all sorts of ways) who don't actually follow what Jesus himself wrote. You know these people when you see them. They're the ones who feel prayer belongs in schools, that homosexuality is evil, that harry potter is evil and any host of small-minded and stupid thoughts. Worse yet, and the thought that has always bothered me the most is that any nonbelieves of christ are doomed to hell. Which, asdustkitten pointed out, Jesus never said.
These people seem to be everywhere. They made big asses of themselves when Williamsville School District tried to put some distance between themselves and Christmas. They're all over the news, especially in politics. They even occasionally come onto MU**s to convert people.
Alot of evil has happened in the name of christianity. In truth, alot of good probably has too, but (again, this part is editted), to be fair, I don't know of much of it.
I can not believe for a second that Jesus Christ would ever have stood for using his name as you marches across the holy lands in the Medieval Ages and took it from those living there. He'd have turned in his grave as people used his name to support unjust and terrible actions against people.
(Edit Finished)
These two reasons are why I could never turn back to these monotheistic religions, especially any religion that believes in an all-good, all-knowing god. And I plainly refuse to ever bow my knee to any bastard that could allow the things that happen to happen. Ever.
And now you know.
I'll leave comments on. If you want to argue with me, flame me, tell me I'm a stupidhead moron who should shut up and never talk again, you may do so.
Though I reserve the rights to delete any comments that are too abusive.
Back to work.
ecwoodburn about religion, I feel the need to vent my own soul too.However, not so terribly long ago, I already wrote up my spiritual past and I won't get back into it again.
However, after reading some of your entries and definately after talking with
ecwoodburn, I am now going to explain why I could never go back to Judaism or step into Christianity.And so, onto the Anti-Christianity/Anti-Judaism portion.
Why I could never be Christian or Jewish
1) I don't believe in your god.
2) I don't like most of your fellow church/templegoers.
Let's explore these more in depths.
On God
One of the main tenets of major religions is that god is just, all-knowing, all-loving, forgiving etc.
Of course, the obvious questions like "How can God allow XXX to occur?" can't be answered.
This life, this world, is filled with tragedies, mostly small-scaled, but some large-scaled.
The Holocaust, 9/11, Terrible fires, floods, deaths, wars, rapes, abuse.
People robbed of all their savings by money-hungry corporations, children abused by clergy, kids fighting an unjust war shot to death while buying CDs.
God has allowed all of it. To be honest, it's so prevalent in today's society that we've become desensitized to some of it. It's become so prevalent we ceased to be shocked when we see a woman get raped on TV, stories of children trapped in cars in 90 degree weather etc.
How can an all-knowing and all-good God ALLOW for these things to happen?
I think that's the major turning point for all people. At some point, all people of all major religions have to turn to their peers, their clergy, their parents and ask "How could god/gods/etc. allow this to happen?" And either you lose faith or you don't.
An interesting theory I've heard kicked around in the past few years is that "Yes, god allows this to happen. He allows this to happen so that you can become a better person from it, to learn and grow."
But I don't believe that for a second. The people with this belief are trying to mollify their own and their peers troubled soul because so much of what goes on today, there's nothing to learn from.
What are you supposed to learn from being raped?
What are you supposed to learn from having your child taken from you when some bastard takes an airplane and wraps it around a skyscraper?
And do any of these lessons truly compare to the lessons you may have learned if these tragedies, small and large scale alike, didn't occur?
If any of you truly have faith in the JudeoChristianMuslim God and can answer for him, by all means go ahead.
Explain to me why God allows these things to happen.
I was talking to
dawnstar yesterday and one of the things I said is that the only good thing I can say about my father is that I'm a better person because of, or perhaps despite him. And she and coderlemming both asked "How do you really know?"And I can't answer.
How do I know I'm a better man for having a father as terrible as mine was compared to no father at all or, completely differently, a good father? I don't. I can't. There is no way to answer that question because I don't have the power to run a controlled experiment contrasting me as I am now with a me who had no father or me with had a good father.
The only one with that sort of capability would be God.
And here's where I bring the point around.
How can you really say that your life is better for living through the tragedies and the terribleness that life can bring?
Is it truly divine will? Some ineffable plan? Or is God a fucking bastard with a nasty sense of humor and a terribly nasty streak.
Let's see what the Bible, another major tenet has to say about that.
Well well well... according to the old testament at least, it looks like God's a fucking bastard: mass killings (Story of Noah's Ark anyone?), countlessly testing his people to see if they love him (Sacrifice of Isaac), destroying anyone who didn't believe in him, despite the fact that supposedly he created them all.
According to Christian theology, anyone who doesn't believe in him (keeping in mind that he created everyone), goes to hell to suffer eternal torment.
This doesn't sound like the works of a just, all-knowing, all-loving etc. God to me.
And this is why I can never turn back to God.
Editted: - Yes, upon talking with others and listening to the comments, I am now going to edit this post.
Followers
And with the Segue, let's get into y'all (and when I say y'all, I don't really mean those of you reading this, since most of you are generally more enlightened than the common mass)
The editting begins with this.. if I'm going to be fair, I don't know too many christians. Those that I do know (and you know you are), I don't consider to be a fair crosssection of the main populace. Maybe that's an unfair assumption, but given that I have more negative experiences with christians than positives ones, it's all I have to work with.
To me, the epitome of the Bad Christian (and unfortunately the stereotype of what a "good christian" is supposed to be in America) is currently running our country. He fights because he is morally right and god speaks to him daily to tell him so.
How I define a Bad Christian are these right wing extremists (and it seems like there are an awful lot of them making asses of themselves in all sorts of ways) who don't actually follow what Jesus himself wrote. You know these people when you see them. They're the ones who feel prayer belongs in schools, that homosexuality is evil, that harry potter is evil and any host of small-minded and stupid thoughts. Worse yet, and the thought that has always bothered me the most is that any nonbelieves of christ are doomed to hell. Which, as
dustkitten pointed out, Jesus never said.These people seem to be everywhere. They made big asses of themselves when Williamsville School District tried to put some distance between themselves and Christmas. They're all over the news, especially in politics. They even occasionally come onto MU**s to convert people.
Alot of evil has happened in the name of christianity. In truth, alot of good probably has too, but (again, this part is editted), to be fair, I don't know of much of it.
I can not believe for a second that Jesus Christ would ever have stood for using his name as you marches across the holy lands in the Medieval Ages and took it from those living there. He'd have turned in his grave as people used his name to support unjust and terrible actions against people.
(Edit Finished)
These two reasons are why I could never turn back to these monotheistic religions, especially any religion that believes in an all-good, all-knowing god. And I plainly refuse to ever bow my knee to any bastard that could allow the things that happen to happen. Ever.
And now you know.
I'll leave comments on. If you want to argue with me, flame me, tell me I'm a stupidhead moron who should shut up and never talk again, you may do so.
Though I reserve the rights to delete any comments that are too abusive.
Back to work.
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my answer (part one)
Date: 2003-09-10 10:48 pm (UTC)But before I do, I want to make it really known that I am not doing this in any way to convert anybody. I just think it is tragic for folks to be dissenting something they aren’t properly informed of.
A great resource for all of that will follow that someone gave me is a book by a man named Christopher West called Good News about Sex and Marriage: answers to your honest questions about catholic teaching. It is a really easy to read question answer format that jumps off from Genesis and all the issues of our fallen nature and other things I don’t really want to go into right now but are really important to the whole understanding of the theology of the body and then delves into all the tricky issues: homosexual unions, contraception, celibacy, divorce.
First off, Catholicism is a very sensual religion, I’ve always liked it for that. The Church teaches that dualism, that the body and spirit are separate, is a heresy. We are body-persons, our bodies are expressions of our spirit, in a sense. Whatever you do to one, you affect the other. You can’t separate the two.
God, then, comes to us most effectively in both spirit/body forms in the sacraments. The sacraments, listed in no particular order, include baptism, communion, reconciliation, confirmation, marriage, anointing, and holy orders. Each includes a physical element. Eucharist – wine and bread, baptism – water, marriage – the act of intercourse to consummate the marriage that night (not many people know that one very well, I venture... you never knew the Church was so scandalous in it’s theology, eh?), etc etc. I had the sacraments explained to me once as “where heaven and earth kiss”; they allow us to see invisible realities in the form of visible things. Not only that – they really communicate what they symbolize. Baptism, for an example: God’s washing away of sins and real cleaning by water.
Marriage symbolizes the one flesh union of Christ and the Church. Every married couple is like a mini Christ and Church. Where are husband and wife one, giving fully of themselves to another in both body and spirit? Only in sex. I wont go into much more of the details, but that is why the Church is so big on sexual morality. It is supposed to symbolize our relationship with God, our beautiful relationship with God. Marriage is a preparation for heavenly marriage, where we are all to be married to Christ, one body.
So, how does this relate to celibacy, it seems like a big paradox, doesn’t it?
The one flesh union of marriage is as a sacrament that is supposed to be a sign and foreshadowing of heaven, the nuptial union with God that we are all created for. Sexual desire, in this light, is then our desire for heaven. Marriage in this world is supposed to point us to the heavenly marriage in the next. Celibacy is the act of forgoing the earthly marriage for the heavenly one.
Celibacy isn’t essential for a valid priesthood – some converted priests from other denominations can be ordained as a Catholic priest even if they are married and eastern rite churches in full communion with the Catholic church have married priests. The Roman rite chooses to uphold this discipline in order to more fully follow the example of Christ. Christ didn’t marry any one woman because he came to marry the whole human race. A celibate is therefore not divided in his service, but fully giving of him or herself to embrace the beauty of their service.